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Welcome to Every Brain is Different, the podcast where we celebrate the unique world of neurodiversity. We are your hosts, Samantha Foote, a neurodivergent, Board Certified Music Therapist and mom to three kids of ADHD and autism. And Lauren Ross, an ally to the neurodivergent community with over 10 years of experience supporting children and adults with autism.

This podcast is for parents like you. Navigating the world of neurodiversity with love and compassion. Together we'll create a world where every brain is valued and celebrated. We're excited to embark on this enlightening journey with you.

Transcript:

Samantha Foote: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Every Brain Is Different Podcast. We’re here with Andrea, and we are here for a parent consulting episode today.

So Andrea, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, about your child, and why you're here today?

Andrea Munoz: Yeah. So my name's Andrea, and my husband and I, we are foster parents. [00:01:00] So we have three biological children of our own, and then we have our 10-year-old foster daughter. She has been with us, we're coming up on a year of her placement with us, and we're struggling a little bit. Obviously, with foster care, there's some other issues that come, trauma, attachment, all that kind of stuff. But she also has ADHD, and it's just, it's so much different than parenting a biological child. Every kid's different, but even more so in that case where I feel like the tools in my toolbox are not adequately adjusting what we need to adjust, so.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. I totally understand. There are things that have happened in her past that you have no control over, and you probably don't know everything, and then there comes trauma and everything that you talked about. So what specifically are you struggling with, that you want [00:02:00] help with, and where do you see, like, where would you like it to be in about six months or so?

Andrea Munoz: Yeah. So for us, mornings are definitely problematic. I do try to get her up earlier than the other kids to allow for more time. However, she seems to, even though we try to stick to a schedule and stick to the same routine and somewhat timeline, she's always pushing back. "Well, do I really have to do my chore today?"

Or, "I wanna do my chore in a different way," or, "I want to X, Y, and Z." And it just feels like she has a very easy trigger, like, point, right, where if I tell her, "No, we always do it this way," right, or, "First we do this and then we do that," especially if she feels like I have a tone, she'll just instantly kind of shut down, get, I wouldn't say necessarily, I mean, it's irritated. I wouldn't say it's angry. We're not having, like, loud outbursts. But [00:03:00] then that seems to affect everything that she's doing or not doing for the rest of the morning.

And recently, we've even gotten to the point where she'll just, she'll refuse to, like, take her medications. "Well, I'm not taking that," or, "I'm not gonna go to school." And so it's really kind of, as a parent, I'm like, "Oh, God, no. You have to take these things. You have to go to school." You know what I mean? And I just, I'm finding myself in this, like, power struggle also that I don't wanna be in, right? Like, I just, I don't know. So I want, in six months, to at least feel like we're not having those moments where she's really challenging those “do or die”. And, and my kind of feeling, 'cause as a foster parent, I do have to report to people if she's denying her medication or if she refuses to go to school. So it just, I know for myself at least, like, I feel like, oh, there's, like, this big spotlight, so this feels even more, like, urgent. So I [00:04:00] would like those moments of, to not be happening in six months, and just feeling like our mornings are just, as normal as they can be. Like, I wanna be able to know what to expect, I guess, and just be able to roll with it better, I guess.

Samantha Foote: Okay. Have you heard of pathological demand avoidance?

Andrea Munoz: No.

Samantha Foote: Okay. So pathological demand avoidance is just, it looks like oppositional defiant disorder, where you, she's just saying no just to say no. And it looks like she's doing it on purpose. She can do it, but she's just not going to do it. And it comes from a place of anxiety, so she needs to control things because she has so much anxiety that [00:05:00] she needs to be in control. And so I would say, I don't know if she has PDA, but I feel like she could be doing these things as a place of a, from a place of anxiety. 'Cause there's so much in her life that has changed. There's so much in her life that she has not been able to control, that these are the things that she can control, and you are a safe person that she feels safe saying no to. Even though you don't wanna be that person-

Andrea Munoz: Right. I do and I don't.

Samantha Foote: But, you do wanna be that person. You do wanna be that person. You want her to feel safe, but you don't want her to continually say no to you. So here are some characteristics, and you can tell me if, "Nope, that's not her, so we'll go a different route," or, "Yes, that sounds like her." Even if she doesn't have the PDA diagnosis, I am not diagnosing her with anything, I am just saying that this could be something to research. [00:06:00] So extreme avoidance of demands. When you place a demand on her immediate reaction is to say, "No. I am not doing that. You can't make me do that." And then the more you try and get her to do it, the more she digs in and refuses.

And then the next one is surface social ability. So she appears social, but it's like, it's driven by a need to control, and she wants to control the outcome rather than just being social for social sake. Like, she needs to control what's happening. She needs to control people's reactions to things. So that's another part of it.

And then social masking, where she's not showing her true self. She's just doing what people think needs to happen so that maybe she can, like, fit in a little bit more, or she's just, like, masking who she truly is.

So those are some of the [00:07:00] common characteristics. I would say the biggest one is the demand avoidance, though, that she's really just not wanting to do what you ask her to do.

Andrea Munoz: Yeah, I mean, it's absolutely, it feels- when I start to, I've asked a couple times nicely, and now I feel like, okay, still ignoring my request, still whatever. Okay, well now if you don't, then no TV after school or, you know what I mean? I have to like kind of like up it, then it like just seems to be like we're in this like Chinese finger trap, right? The more that I- pull, the more she just like cinches in. So I do think that that feels really true. Here's another question, 'cause I know that, I don't know if this fall in, falls in line with PDA or not, but one of the other issues that we really have is, like eye contact or even facing us. Like, she will, like the other night she was, I was on the couch and [00:08:00] she was standing like over my shoulder trying to ask me something, and I said, "Okay Lily, can you just take a few steps forward so that we can actually, I can see you and you can see me." "Oh, I can see you." "Okay. I cannot see you though, so can you just step a few..." And she literally took s- two steps backwards. You know what I mean? And so I don't know if that still is falling into that same kind of thing that like when you're making this request and it's, "No, like I won't do that. Like I'll, I'm gonna do something different." Do you feel like that is also part of that? Or do you think that's a different-

Samantha Foote: Honestly, I think that just might be her comfort with making eye contact. I don't think it's part of that, but I do know that a lot of neurodivergent people, it is physically painful to make eye contact.

Andrea Munoz: Yeah.

Lauren Ross: I don't think you should demand specifically for eye contact. Like, I, I don't have like neurodivergent, well, I'm sure I do, but I don't even want to make eye contact.

Andrea Munoz: [00:09:00] Yeah. Okay.

Lauren Ross: And so, and especially if she has past trauma that or so-

Andrea Munoz: Yeah. Yeah, no, and I've tried to keep that in mind. It seems very specifically, like she'll make eye contact with me all day if we're talking about something that she enjoys or wants to talk about. It's definitely more when we're having like tough conversations or a corrective moment or whatever that she seems to all of a sudden know, and, and I do understand that. But yeah, I just kind of wondered if this was kind of in the same vein or if it was separate, but that makes, makes sense to me.

In terms of the other two points, I'm not entirely sure. I think there is a certain bit of the masking that's going on. I mean, I know that like even just recently she was playing with a little friend while we were like at one of my boys' gymnastics meets, and she'd just gotten this new pack of stickers, and of course did not... Like she, she wanted to share the stickers, but there were a few that were her favorite and of [00:10:00] course the friend wanted them, and she was like, "Okay." And I was like, "No, it's okay to say, 'Oh, those are my favorites. Could you pick a different one?'" And she has this thing too where she's, she doesn't like to be friends with girls because they like- I don't know, do role playing, I guess. And I don't know if that quite fits, if that quite fits either. But, so she is very particular how she wants to be perceived with her friend group. She wants to be perceived as, like, really athletic and tough, and so she really does choose to be friends with boys, I think. It's just easier for her.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. So she could, I don't know, I'm just guessing-

Andrea Munoz: Right, right.

Samantha Foote: So she could feel more comfortable with boys because she can control that more easily, and with girls she doesn't quite know what to do, and so the anxiety is lower when she's around boys. 'Cause I know the heart of PDA is anxiety. [00:11:00] So kids who have PDA are often in fight or flight constantly. So the more you can do to relieve that fight or flight, the better it will be for her. I don't know if you listened to Dr. Satia Sardonikis' episode with us, but she is a chiropractor that does neurofascial flow method. That's her trademarked thing, and it's just helping kids get out of fight or flight. So that's a physical thing that you could do to help her get out of fight or flight.

Samantha Foote: Hey everyone, Samantha here, and I'm thrilled to invite you to join me for something special, the Parenting Power Hour. This is your chance, parents of neurodivergent kids, to bring your questions directly to me and fellow parents in the room. We're here to help you develop actionable plans that really work so you can finally stop the meltdowns and find peace in your home. As a mom to three kids with ADHD and autism, I've seen [00:12:00] and been through the challenges too. So trust me, we'll find solutions together that fit your family. Don't miss out on the Parenting Power Hour. It's a free, online monthly gathering, every second Thursday of the month, from 12:45 to 1:45 Mountain Standard Time. Visit everybrainisdifferent.com to reserve your spot today.

Samantha Foote: The other things, low demand parenting is very effective with kids who are in fight or flight, who have PDA. And that basically just means choosing your battles. What do you really wanna focus on her doing? What are the things that are non-negotiable to you, and what are the things that, like, meh, if you don't do them, I'm not gonna worry about it? So, for example, with my son, taking his medication, non-negotiable, and I tell him that. I say- "This is non-negotiable. You have to take this for medical [00:13:00] reasons." But unloading the dishwasher right as soon as he gets home from school, meh, I'm not worried about that. Maybe not even doing any chores at all for a while until she gets back to, like, out of that fight or flight continual place being in fight or flight. But that's up to you what's non-negotiable, what is negotiable. But I will say, like, the things that are non-negotiable, I would still present them as if she's choosing what to do. So, for example, "Do you wanna take your medication before dinner or after dinner? Do you want to do your homework when you get home from school or after you watch TV?" Or whatever. Like, just giving her options, but giving her options that you can live with and that will still get things done, but it makes her feel like she's in charge, and so that anxiety [00:14:00] is slightly lessened because she can choose when she's going to do it.

Andrea Munoz: Okay. Yeah I feel- go ahead.

Lauren Ross: I was gonna kind of add onto that because in the beginning when, like, when you were introducing yourself, I heard you mention, "Oh, she wants to do it, but she's doing it a different way or not the way that it should be," or, "We have a schedule," and I think it's okay to have boundaries, but, like, flexibility in that if she wants to do a chore a different way, like, in the grand scheme of things, like, does it, as long as she's, like, putting the effort into it, I think, like, really embracing those small wins, even if it's not typically what you would want or how you want it. But if there are moments like that where, like, she might be willing, it's just not your standards of what maybe you think, but having flexibility in some of those things, like, where maybe we do get out of the schedule and something else happens first and later, just having that [00:15:00] flexibility if it's not, like, a real non-negotiable, I guess, kind of adding on to that.

Andrea Munoz: Right. Yeah. I mean, I think that's definitely something for me to kind of discuss with my husband on, like, what are our non-negotiables and what are things that could be more flexible. I guess I... And to be honest, I don't think I've really researched ADHD a whole bunch, right? But for me, I was just like, "Well, we have to keep her focused, and we have to, like, keep her on task." So I think that's where I was coming from with the, "No, like, we keep the schedule. We're gonna..." In providing what I felt was, like, structure and predictability and trying to, like, I guess, help her manage those tasks rather than having her do it since- I don't know, her brain isn't strong in that suit, right? So, but yeah, I mean, that's definitely something that we can try and see if maybe that helps the [00:16:00] mornings go a little bit easier, because I think ultimately, like that's the goal, is to have everyone out of the door with as few irritable exchanges as possible, and being able to start their day on a positive foot rather than an irritated one.

Samantha Foote: Yeah, for sure. And I think providing her structure is fantastic, and I think you are doing all the right things. But add in the choice part. So let her help you make a morning routine. Say, "Okay, these are the things that we need to get done in the morning. What order do you wanna do them in?" And then make a visual schedule for her that maybe she can check off as she does them, and then if she's not doing what she's supposed to do, be like, "Where are you at in your routine?" Or, "I see that you did this, and I see that needs to be done next." So even, I say demand, like demand avoidant, and [00:17:00] demands can be as simple as a question like, "How are you doing today?" That's seen as a demand that could send her into anxiety, could send her into fight or flight. So what they recommend doing is using declarative language, which isn't asking a question. It's just making an observation. So if you make a routine with her in the morning, and she decides what she's doing in what order, and then she got off track, she is not doing what she was supposed to be doing, because a myth about ADHD is that they're not paying attention, where in reality they're paying attention to everything. And so it's just very overwhelming, and you think that they're not paying attention, when really their attention just got shifted to something else. So to shift her attention back, you can say, "I see that you got dressed, you made your bed, you brushed your teeth. Now I see that the, you know, eating breakfast isn't checked off yet." And [00:18:00] then that, you leave it at that, and you don't say, "What are you gonna do to eat breakfast?" Or, "What are you gonna eat?" Just 'cause that will, that's seen as a demand.

Andrea Munoz: Right, okay.

Samantha Foote: But if you just use the declarative language, then you're telling her what to do without telling her what to do. You're just, like reminding her that, "Oh, this needs done." So another example, like if she needs to clean her room and she's not cleaning it, you can be like, "Wow, there's a lot of garbage on your floor," or, "There's like Legos on your floor," and just leave it at that. I mean, that works for some kids. It doesn't work for other kids, but it's something to try.

Andrea Munoz: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, and that's with all kids.

Samantha Foote: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like-

Andrea Munoz: Not one size fits all at all, so.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. Yeah. Like we say on this show all the time, every brain is different. But I think you are on a great track just [00:19:00] creating those predictable routines, offering choices, and then just adding in the choice part where, and adding in the non-negotiables. And I wouldn't tell her that it's negotiable, but I would say, "This is non-negotiable," and then for the other things, you can give her more choice and more flexibility. And then work up to those things, like for example, my son, my 10-year-old son, when he unloads the dishwasher, he puts all the dishes on the counter and I put them away. That's where we're at right now. That's what he can do. Do I want him to put the dishes away? Absolutely, but we are working up to that. I'm not gonna worry about him doing it perfectly right now, but we are working up to that. So last week, I was like, "Okay, now we need to put the silverware in the drawer." He'd never done that before. Now he's doing that. Then we're gonna put the bowls away, and then I'm gonna ask him to put the [00:20:00] glasses away, but it's going to be slowly in increments and not just... Because for him, overlo- unloading the dishwasher is way too overwhelming right now, but he can put the dishes on the counter, and he can put the silverware away.

So it's just playing with those kinds of things and expectations of flexibility. And I know it might be hard with your other kids, because I know for my kids, they'll be like, "Well, they don't have to do that. Why do I have to do that?" And then we'll say, I tell my kids, like, "Everyone is different. We have, like, expectations that I know you can do. I know you can do this. I know he can do this. Like, you don't have to do this. He has to do this, so it's just what your str- where your strengths are." But sometimes that's hard to explain to kids. I understand that, but that's what we do in my house. And it seems to work. They seem to understand that.

But yeah, do you have any questions, or like, how are you feeling about all this?

Andrea Munoz: [00:21:00] So, well, 'cause like when we were talking about the chores, so I mean, normally, I would say 75% of the time, like she's pretty good about just like coming down and starting her chore right away and all of that kind of stuff. But then there's just those other times where she's like, "What if I spray it, and then I'm gonna sweep off the crumbs?" Or whatever. You know what I mean? I don't know. And so I guess for me, I just struggle with- But you always, or not always, but you usually just do it, just do it how you always do it. Like, I just, why are we, like, questioning this right in that moment? And so is that would I just be like, "I see that you want to do this in a different way than what's normally done." Or, I don't know, like, what, is that where I use a declarative, like, statement, or do I just go, "Okay," and then just move on?

Samantha Foote: I would say if the job is getting done, be like, "Oh, that's an interesting way to do that. I'd never thought of that." And just [00:22:00] let her have that moment. Especially if it's the majority of the time that she's doing it the way it's supposed to be done, she might just be looking for that control. Like sh- honestly, that day she might have a lot of anxiety, and that is her one way of showing that, "I am in control of myself." So as long as it's, like, getting done for the most part, I would just, I wouldn't worry too much about it. And she might be looking for a reaction from you, too, just to see, like, how far she can push you. And so I wouldn't make a big deal out of it and just be like, "Oh, that's an interesting way to do that," and then move on with life. And then if it gets to a point where she's not doing anything the way it's supposed to be done and the job isn't getting done, then that's a whole different story. But if she's doing it correctly the majority of the time, I wouldn't make a big deal out of it.

Andrea Munoz: Right. Yeah. No, I think that what you said right [00:23:00] there, I think is- Kind of spot on where like she's looking for, I don't know if you used reaction or attention, but I think, yeah, she's looking for me to interact with her in that moment. So yeah, and I try to make it so that when she comes downstairs, that we do our hug, I say good morning and try to give her that moment before like we rush into the slew of to-dos, right? So yeah, I don't know if you have, I guess, still just give her the attention and just, "Oh, that's an interesting way to do that," and then just kind of move on?

Samantha Foote: Yeah, and then really pile on the positive interactions.

Andrea Munoz: Okay.

Samantha Foote: So if you notice her doing that, it might be because she's craving more connection with you and she knows that the easiest way to get your attention is doing something negative. And so if you give her as little amount of attention as possible for like negative things, and then you really pile [00:24:00] on the positive attention for good things that she's doing or positive bids for attention, if she says, "Hey, will you play a game with me? Will you do this with me?" Really lean into that. But then if she's doing negative bids for attention, then kind of give her attention, deal with what's going on, but don't overreact to it.

Andrea Munoz: Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. I know, I, I realize that a lot of this is not her responsibility. It's more the need for my own tools or my own relearning or my own adjusting how I'm responding to things. So this is really helpful and exactly why like I reached out, 'cause I was like, "Well, I've exhausted the tools and we're not getting any different results, so what else is out there?"

Samantha Foote: Yeah. And if you think that she might have PDA, PDA is not recognized in the United States. It's not [00:25:00] like in the DSM-5, it's not diagnosed except for a few clinicians. And so you, she's not gonna be like diagnosed with it. But if you think she has the traits of it, I would look on our website, listen to the podcast that we've done with the PDA North America founder, and then look into PDA North America. They have amazing support groups that you could also talk to other parents. I think they might even have a foster parent group.

Andrea Munoz: Oh, okay.

Samantha Foote: They have all kinds of groups on PDA North America's website. So definitely look into that if you think that that's what's going on, because they are amazing resources.

Andrea Munoz: Nice. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I'll definitely check them out.

Lauren Ross: I think kind of adding that, just be really curious. Be curious about the diagnoses. Look more into ADHD. Look into, I really recommend digging deep into, like, trauma-informed care in addition to if you think it might be PDA, that. So just [00:26:00] be really curious and do some more research, 'cause like- you never know what you might find, so.

Andrea Munoz: Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and we do have a lot of resources available to us. We're working with a in-home therapist, and we're starting with an attachment therapist tomorrow. She also has, obviously, attachment issues, so hopefully we'll be able to kind of figure out what exactly she needs to be supported.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. And you, just as a reminder, you are doing amazing. I really commend you for even getting on here, coming today and looking for more resources, and just really doing your best. Yeah, just remember that. You're doing amazing.

Andrea Munoz: Well, thank you.

Samantha Foote: Yeah. But yeah. Well, thank you for coming on today. If you have any other questions, definitely message us, and we have our p- our Parenting Power Hour once a month, so you can always come on [00:27:00] there, ask us question. It's a free resource. It's the second Thursday of the month at 12:45 mountain time. Okay. And if you have any other questions, you can come on there and ask them. And yeah, so.

Andrea Munoz: Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

Samantha Foote: Hope we helped you.

Andrea Munoz: Yeah. No, I definitely have some things I'm gonna try and see how they work, so thank you.

Samantha Foote: Awesome. Awesome.

Thank you for listening to today's episode. We hope this discussion on neurodiversity has provided you with support, understanding and inspiration. If you're looking for more support, Or you can go to everybrainisdifferent.com and download the ultimate guide to parenting your neurodivergent child.